Welcome back to another episode of the Digital Nexus podcast. Today we are joined with Michelle Gilmore, CEO of Juno. Juno is an AI research platform built by career researchers to run real conversations at scale. Michelle brings a remarkable twenty year plus journey. Um, well, I’m an industrial designer all the way through to now AI innovator. Uh, she’s the co-founder of Juno, having raised recently just two point eight million dollars from Blackbird Ventures to build what she calls the listening engine for the world. We’ll also be diving into how they built up Juno, utilizing their experience over the last twenty years to create a very unique AI platform, and how expertise in the loop is an important thing to consider when building tools like this. Even more incredibly, she has built a digital twin of herself as a CEO, and I’m really excited to showcase how she has done that and how she’s able to level herself up in her career and in her entrepreneurial business. Enjoy the episode. Michelle, thank you so much for joining us. Very welcome. Excited to be here. Really excited about this conversation. You have had quite the journey in your career. Um, as you just spoke about before, you mentioned you started your first business at like the age of twenty one. Yeah. Tell me about that journey. Um. It. Yeah. Wow. It’s been, um, two decades of of five businesses. Juno’s my fifth. Yeah. Um. And, yeah, I haven’t worked for anyone else since I was. I think I had a job when I was maybe twenty four for. For about six or twelve months. Yep. Um, I have always wanted to make things, um, that’s kind of just who I am. Um, some days I wish that I could just work for someone else, but it’s just not part of me. It’s not. Not in my makeup. I am really interested in building things from scratch and putting them out into the world. Um, I’m really interested in, uh, how systems sort of work together and how, uh, complex services and systems get out to the world. Um, I think that we’re really in a really interesting time, but we always have been in a really interesting time. So, um, having to experiment, having to make high risk decisions. You know, I really enjoy all of that. So I run an article that you had written or an interview you had had with someone and something you mentioned was around. You’re really uncomfortable with uncertainty, like you thrive in that environment of like challenge and finding. Yes. So I find I find certainty, uh, uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I think that that is probably, you know, an attention span. Yeah. Um, but things move on to the next ones. I really, um, I really enjoy, uh, exploring a problem. Um, and I think that it’s really rewarding to experiment, um, and to learn something new and be wrong and, um, see something fail early and all of those sorts of things I find really interesting. So has has it always been an easy journey doing this? Like, you don’t hear many stories of entrepreneurs starting at the age of almost twenty one. Like you say, it hasn’t been easy building a business. And like, tell me about what the challenges I’ve faced having to do that. I’ve I’ve failed a lot. But I think that, um, I don’t necessarily frame it as that. So for me, um, failing is new information. It’s good information. It’s helpful. Um, I enjoy debate and difference. Um, I love it when my team disagree with me. You know, I see nothing but virtue when I hear that. So, um, it’s been really hard. It’s relentless, and I wouldn’t change a thing. So you mentioned you started five businesses. Has has it all? Has it been five businesses that you’ve been able to successfully build, or would you say you’ve had way more? No no no. How many how many businesses? Me a few weeks ago at an event and said, um, Michelle’s had five successful businesses and I corrected them and said, that is just not true. Um, so one of them was an incredible success. Um, and the other three, not so much, um, varying levels. Uh, and, you know, we’re yet to see, um, it’s certainly promising. It’s showing good early signs. Um, but statistically speaking, you know, all of our startups are going to be a spectacular failure. Um, and you have to believe that you’ve got the markers that are going to be the exception to that rule, um, which is some level of, like, just sheer self-confidence. I think you just have to believe and back yourself that you are the one that can make this thing happen. Um, and there needs to be constant inputs to kind of prove that that’s the case. Yeah. I think one of the things I always hear around being an entrepreneur is the ability, what separates a lot of people’s ability to get back up. Yeah. As it obviously knocks you down quite a lot. It does. Have you ever had a moment where it’s really knocked you down and you thought, I don’t know if I could do this anymore? Often weekly. So that week. Weekly. Weekly. Yeah. Sometimes daily. You know, I think that I feel that the, the lows are low and the highs are high. Right. So, um, it’s constant work of showing up every day. Um, and when things go wrong, there’s no one else to blame. Right? So, um, whether it’s that a feature falls flat or you make a bet that was the wrong bet and it doesn’t go your way, sometimes it’s in your control, sometimes it’s not. Um, but, you know, I launched before Juno. I launched a whole training company to teach humans how to do qualitative research. Epic failure really just. And this is one of the five that you built. Failure. Yeah. It was called train. Um the intention was very similar to Juno’s actually, was that I wanted more companies to do great behavioral research so that they stop putting crap into the world. Right? I mean, the world would be a better place if products, systems and services are built on a deep understanding of the people that they serve. Um, and that, you know, as my core mission hasn’t changed, but I thought that I could teach people to do this. How hard, how hard could it be? I’m really good at it. I can design a program and I can teach a lot of people to do it. Thousands of people went through that program, and about five percent of them were any good at it. And does that mean that the whole the whole company failed and the whole company failed because my hypothesis was disproven. And my hypothesis was that if the framework is great and if the material is great. Anyone with a certain level of entry requirement can be good at this. And humans are just really bad at it. Humans ask leading questions, they divert to social norms. They can’t not put their own emotion in it. They can’t not react, um, particularly Western dominant culture, so that that whole business failed because my hypothesis was wrong. Did you did you have that failure noticed earlier on in your journey, or did you find that maybe there was probably more research that you needed to do to validate your hypothesis before getting as far down the business? Um, I think I was probably a little stubborn about that one. I think the signs were there. Yep. Um, and I just wanted to believe that people could be good at it, and large volumes of people could be good at it. Um, and I probably should have let it go a little earlier than I did. My, my co-founder, Josh was saying to me, we’ve got a bed in on machines, not people. You know, that’s where this technology is going. And AI is a perfect way to do qualitative research. Yep. Um, and, you know, three or four years ago, I was saying to him, I’m not sure you’re right about this. He was right. He was right. What changed your mind? What the, uh. He did. He did? Yeah. He, um, was incredibly tenacious and just kept on showing me outcomes of various experiments that he was running. Yeah. And very quickly, it became very good. And, uh, he was persistent because you’ve got a design background, I’m assuming. Is he a tech background or is the design background self-taught? Tech background? Yeah. Um, but he has a design background as well. Yes. Awesome. How have you found that design has supported you throughout your entrepreneurial. So having myself, I’m very UX design plays a massive role in particularly in the research side of things when you’re trying to understand the needs, wants, desires of customers. So not design as like drawing pictures, but design as an approach. How have you found that’s helped you as an entrepreneur? Yeah. So I, I think I would categorize myself as a, um, a system designer. So a systems thinker. So, um, um, deeply understanding, dissecting, inspecting, uh, digital or physical objects, ordering them, categorizing them, um, creating experiences that, uh, support a particular task or journey that I want someone to go through. You know, that’s kind of how I think about the world. Um, I think that experimentation plays a really big part in that. So, you know, which really is kind of scientific theory, which is establish a hypothesis, test it, learn from that, iterate, test again, um, get it into the hands of people that will use it as quickly as possible. You know, I do that religiously. Um, and I’m, I’m really not afraid of that failing, So I don’t have, um, my personal self isn’t necessarily connected in that. So that’s, I think, a really, really great unfair advantage. Um, because I’m very comfortable with that vulnerability. Um, and something that I observe in designers, just generally speaking, is that they are generally not. So there’s this kind of protecting their work or there’s a bit of sunk cost bias. They’ve gone a bit too far. And so all of the research is very leading. All the testing is very leading. Um, when actually you learn a lot, if you can try to objectively watch someone use your product, um, or if you deeply understand how they’re thinking about something and you’ve done the research, uh, it makes that thing better. I find that’s a lot we’d like that. Especially if you have those creative backgrounds and you’re spending a lot of time literally designing something, and you put your soul into it. Yeah, very hard to be told, actually. That’s not the right solution or this is wrong. You’re like, well, you just don’t know what you’re talking about. And so you’re just like, well, what’s going on here? This is this is not what we’re here for. We’re the objective thinking as as. And it can feel personal, right? It very much so. And so obviously this has taken you on, as you mentioned, as you touched on, Juno has now your little baby. And you guys were able to go backed by Blackbird. And that’s still the case, which is really, really awesome. Um, how have you found that transition from, I guess, failure into what I would see as quite a success at the moment? Um, I know it’s early days. It is early days. Yep. Um, it’s been amazing. I mean, Blackbird are incredible partners, obviously. Um, it’s fantastic to have my first, uh, funding experience be with a company like Blackbird. Um, I certainly landed on my feet there. Um, I am really enjoying, uh, the freedom that comes with having a incredibly healthy runway, having a product that we’re getting incredible feedback on. um, and being able to move at the speed we’re moving at, um, and coming from failure, I don’t necessarily frame it like that. What I think is that Juno was born out of, um, this incredible legacy of fifteen years of being one of the best qualitative researchers in the world. And I traveled the world for pretty much seven years, non-stop, um, dropping into various locations for my clients to research human behavior. Um, and Juno is is built on that legacy. And I’m really, really proud of that. Um, sure. I made a pretty silly bet in between. Um, but that’s okay. I think that with every failure is a success that leaves Juno, you know, all of that learning of me, trying to teach humans how to do it, that all lives in Juno now. Um, and maybe we wouldn’t be where we are today if I hadn’t taken that slight misstep. So tell us a little bit about you. So from I’ve used it extensively. I love it as a tool, especially for qualitative research. I use a lot in the UX projects that I run with my clients as well. Um, one of the big misconceptions around, you know, is the old school way of sending out surveys to people, right? It’s very static. It’s very not really objective often because a lot of leading questions, and it’s not a really fun and structured way to get insights. So disengaging tell me how Juno like separates itself from that realm and intertwines it with, I guess, the more traditional, insightful way of doing research. So surveys are really shallow. Um, very much so. You, you get, uh, someone’s initial response and it is, uh, largely either in a ranked or a multiple choice or a kind of binary way. Um, you can’t follow up. You don’t know why. It may give you some useful data from a sort of sixty percent of people said they don’t like your product, or sixty percent of people said they wouldn’t recommend you. Um, what can we do with that? So what? It’s. Send out another survey and hope for a response. I also think it’s worth thinking about the types of people that answer surveys, and that it is skewed toward a very particular personality. Yeah. Um, I mean, I’ve answered maybe three in my life, right? In terms of a consumer actually taking that on, except for those really annoying in business culture ones where they send out stuff to you and you’re like, oh, how is everyone feeling in the office today? And you’re just like, yeah, Chris, you haven’t filled in that form yet. Yeah, I’m not right. I’m not attendance. Um, so, uh, surveys are sort of are severely lacking, right? Um, now, that doesn’t mean that there’s not a place for that. Uh, but if you are trying to deeply understand what someone thinks feels, how their experience was, you need to give them space and time to reflect. Um, you need depth. And so what Juno does is via a conversation helps participants to articulate how they think or feel about something. Uh, it follows up, it probes, it asks for examples, it quantifies and qualifies. And what you’ll notice is that sometimes people are actually changing their answers. Now, that doesn’t mean that they were lying or that they were wrong. It means that they are getting further into their subconscious and they’re reflecting. Why did you make that decision? Uh, tell me what happened before that. What happened after that? Can you give me an example of that? Just like you were having an interview with someone, right? Yeah. Yeah. So Juno’s whole reason for being is to interview people on our customers behalf. That’s it. That’s all it does. Um, and our goal is for it to be the best in the world. In the world at that. Awesome. And I don’t think there’s many other products out there right now similar to that, particularly from a research analysis perspective. I think that, um, there are a lot of, uh, people claiming that they do AI led research. Um, and or testing, um, testing. Definitely. Yeah. And I don’t it’s it’s actually not a technically hard thing to do to get a large language model to facilitate an interview. True. Um, that that that’s not technically challenging. Um, it’s fast, it’s cost effective. It’s accessible. They all are. Um, Junos difference is my background and my subject matter, domain expertise. And the twenty years of data that you’ve collected with successful projects. Um, you just can’t buy that. You can’t buy that experience. Um, and so we have an unfair advantage that Junos whole existence is governed and evaluated by me. And yes, that’s subjective, but we’re really comfortable with that because I know that I am very good at that thing. Um, I try to teach it to people and now I’m teaching it to machines. And, uh, it’s better because of that reason. Uh, and we have a bunch of sort of proprietary elements that I think are really hard to copy. Mhm. Uh, but it’s not hard to just spin up an agent that facilitate an entity build a GPT around it if you wanted to. But yeah. No, that makes perfect sense. Uh, AI is obviously on this show. We talk a lot about it with people who are founding businesses and building them with AI as part of the core nature of it. Um, how have you seen AI impacting? I guess, uh, and there’s an interesting part that I want to get into. We’ll talk about that just yet. But generally speaking, from a market perspective, how have you seen AI impact how you do business or even the things that people are producing within business? Um, just generally just generally. Yeah. So, um, I think that it is it is absolutely part of our core work now. I mean, Juno’s an AI first company, right? So I won’t necessarily speak about that because that’s a given. But what I am noticing with our customers and our clients is that, um, I would say that fear is reducing. Mhm. Um, which I think is a great thing. Yeah. Uh, I think that, uh, people are experimenting more and they are using it daily. Um, things like, uh, meeting prep give me insights on, uh, this project. I’m going to feed you all of the information. Tell me where it’s at. Um, how am I spending my time, uh, creating custom projects? I think people are starting to get more, um, more confident with. And know that if you give more context, you get better results. Um, and I think there’s just this sort of maturity that’s starting to increase that I’m hearing, um, six months ago, I think that, uh, it was it was quite immature and quite led by fear. And I think that we are starting to see people get more comfortable. Um, and just be more patient with it. And like anything, you need to be in conversation with this tool and service rather than just thinking it’s going to spit out what you want. Yeah, the fear is an interesting one because there especially in in the Australian market, obviously the our large corporations in particular tend to be very risk averse. Yeah. And that’s a lot of that is driven by fear by, you know, of adoption and not understanding the impact or what it has on their people, their business, their technologies that they have, their security and stuff like that. And even bringing Juno into some of the projects I’ve run in the past, there was like a lot of layers of when you do checks and balances, what’s it mean for our customer data, etc., how are you guys able to over focus on trying to resolve that fear that people have, particularly in this market? Yeah, I think that, um, we have it easier than most because Juno asks questions. Mhm. So it doesn’t generate anything. It doesn’t, um, plug in to your data. Um, you don’t have to necessarily even give us, uh, customer data. So, um, it is almost inverting the large language model kind of notions. Right? Where we’re going to give you a whole lot of information and you’re going to make something from that. Do you know, just asking questions? Well, so all you need to tell Juno is what you want to know and from whom. And then it asks questions. So the risk as long as obviously participants consent to that experience, the risk is actually quite low. Mhm. Um, as long as we don’t, uh, pass information, as long as we don’t hold data that we’re not supposed to, as long as minors aren’t involved, as long as there’s no vulnerable participants. Um, it’s actually a very low risk environment. And what we are seeing through the procurement process is big corporate, usually conservative, slow companies are actually using Juno and doing it really quickly. Mhm. Um, and I think that that’s testament to, uh, a increase in maturity and also a kind of leaning into this is happening whether we like it or not. Yeah. Um, and our competitors are using it, so we best do that as well. Um, and it’s not like the old way was working, right? Like, how many crappy research reports have you read? Um. And how much money has been dumped into traditional human led research? And we get the data and we can’t use it. Yeah, exactly. And so I think that there’s something really interesting here, which is we don’t have to overthink it too much because it’s so cost effective and it’s so, uh, fast that you can just do more interviews if you didn’t find it valuable. How are you finding the cross section between your tools? Now, with that deep thinking, deep learning, um, you’re able to pretty much jump into these platforms and ask a complex research topic and it will spit out data because of all the information that it has on the World Wide Web. Like, I love how perplexity is able to do that. It even gives you visual outputs and stuff like that. How do you see the comparison between what your tool is doing engaging with people, even though that is in real time compared to, I guess, the research I could just do? Mhm. I think they’re both really valuable. Um, so Juno talks to people and gives you that as a type of data to input into your project, your client, your decision making process. Um, broad economic market, commercial research will always have a place. Um, and Juno doesn’t do that. Uh, Juno is going to go and talk to people on your behalf and tell you what they think or feel based on a particular topic. And so I don’t I see them it as an end. Yeah. Um, if you are trying to make well-rounded decisions, Juno is an input to that. It is one type of data that you should seek. Nice. So we see when people are conducting these types of projects, whether they’re building new products, whether they’re validating ideas. Having both sides of the equation is really important to validate. Absolutely. I say to our customers, Juno’s one input. Yeah. And Juno’s not going to give you the whole answer. Juno’s not going to give you all you need to make a responsible decision. If Juno goes and talks to a thousand people for you, you still have to make the decision about the economy, technology, the political climate, sustainability, environmental thoughts and aspects. Do you actually have the technical skills to do that thing? What is your board say? What are your stakeholders say? What are your employees say? Um, there are a lot of things to consider, and Juno is an input into that. Yeah. Nice. One of the things we’re seeing more is conversation around the purpose of AI in business. And there’s always a conversation, um, I guess butting of heads between AI being a product versus a feature. How do you see AI playing its role, particularly within Juno? And interesting whether I think it’s a product or a feature. I think it depends on the context. Yeah. Um, it is. I actually think it’s like any technology, it’s an enabler. Yep. And I think it depends on the problem that we’re trying to solve. Um, obviously we’re seeing a lot of productivity type gains. Um, we are seeing the ability to, uh, synthesize large pools of data that we haven’t been able to do before. We’re seeing benefits in things like long term memory. Um, I think that we need to like anything. Think about what are we trying to solve and for whom, and what is the best, uh, what are the best tools to get me that outcome? Yeah. Um, so I don’t know that I, that I would say it’s a product or a feature. It is a. Technological system that can amplify things that can, um, achieve the thing that we want to achieve. It enables us, um, and I think technology has always been that. Yeah. You know, I’m not sure I’m not sure that’s different. Yeah. Um, it’s sure pace is different. Um, the barrier to entry is lower from a technical point of view. Like, there’s a lot of things about it that are actually really exciting, um, that the last technical revolution didn’t give us very much. So we can even just being ability to be able to build things now. Yeah. Off the bat is like it’s an incredible isn’t it? It’s amazing. I mean, I’ve talked about this previously, but the other day I, um, conducting my own started doing exercise again. I have, you know, it’s been a while. I had a kid, as you do, you spiral off into I family. So you know exactly that journey. Um, and I was like, okay, I need something to track what? I’m. Yeah. I started looking up applications and I’m like, I want to pay thirty bucks a month, twenty bucks a month for this. I’m like, wait a second, I know how to vibe. Code jumped onto bolt and I just started building up my own application, took up some data sources, plugged it in, AI over the top, and now I have my own app. Yeah, without having to hook me up with that. It’s fantastic. Yeah, I’ll share it with you. Um, something that, uh, that when we spoke last was a really awesome topic is that as we move deeper and deeper into AI, entering how it operates and supports us in business, how it operates and supports us in our lives? Um, you’ve been able to build something using agents. A digital twin of yourself? I have, yeah. Tell me about this, because this is really exciting. Yeah. Um, I’m really excited about it as well. Um, and we actually haven’t spoken to anyone about it yet. Um, because it is. Heard it here first. Yeah. Heard it here first. Um, it is it is happening now. So it is unfolding. Um, so there’s a whole bunch of your questions that I’ll probably say I don’t know to. And I think that’s okay. Um, I think it’s really interesting to share something that is underway rather than something that happened six months ago. So, um, just to to remind the audience, Juneau’s whole point of difference is the fact that my co-founder and I did the job that Juneau does. Yeah. Um, and we did it very well. You know, we were top of our game. We did it across the world in different countries, cultures, languages, contexts. Um, so we have a very, um, nuanced, diverse, uh, set of experiences. Now, the question is, how do you get that into Juneau? How how do we and we’ve been experimenting. How do you do it? How do you do it? So, um, we decided that we would create a digital twin of me, uh, and more specifically of my qualitative researcher self. So we would clone that part of me, uh, And that clone will evaluate and orchestrate and govern our suite of agents that make Juno work. Um, so that’s what we’re doing, and we are currently deploying that into our system, um, and running a bunch of experiments to see how effective that is. But the exciting part is being able to scale me. So prior to this, I was manually evaluating governing or orchestrating Juno. So I was saying, do more of this, do less of that, that was leading. That wasn’t a good question. This is a better question. This is what success looks like. This is what failure looks like. I was spending most of my time doing that. Yeah. Um, which is incredibly time consuming. And also it means that we have a big risk, right? Like, what if, um. What if I can’t do that one day? It means that Juno’s not getting that feedback loop. Um, and so actually, my co-founder Josh said, let’s just clingy. And I said, hell yeah, let’s do that. That’s I’ve been waiting for this moment. I’ve wanted my twin sister the whole time. Um, and I’m really excited about it. I actually think it’s going to completely change our product and business. There’s, uh, and one of the reasons I dove into it, there’s obviously that big thing about fear in the market when it comes to integration of AI within businesses and whether it’s going to be taking over my job or taking over my business, taking over, I guess, everything that I built myself up to be. What’s your view on that as you’re now building this thing that is replacing what you’re doing on a day to day basis? It’s taking over your job as the as the CEO. It is business. How do you get over that fear? Um, well, I never had the fear. Never had the fear, of course. And so I’m. Yeah, I what I, I see it as an amplifier. I see it as a way to scale. Um, I see it as an incredible superpower that we’re about to insert into this business, and I believe that it is going to make Juno the best in the world. Um, my experience, my judgment, my intuition, all of the conversations that I’ve ever had with people in an interview context that living in Juno is the only way that we succeed. If our whole point of difference is quality, then and that quality is defined by me being able to run a better interview than a competitor. The only way to do that is to build that in, and that can’t be done using traditional methods. Um, it’s just not an effective way to use this technology. So, I mean, it sounds extreme, but actually when you think about it like that, it’s quite logical. And it is a I don’t I don’t believe that we had any other choice other than let’s clone that part of me, and let’s plug that into the system, uh, so that we can scale it. You know, she doesn’t need to sleep. She doesn’t have a kid. She can speak multiple languages. Um, her memory is much better than me. Yeah. Um, and so I’m not scared. I’m excited. Uh, maybe I should be scared, I don’t know. I’m not thinking about that too much. Um, but allows you to focus on more, right? You can start to scale. Yeah, I hear I can talk to you. Exactly. Knowing that she is evaluating my products and making sure that it’s doing its job well. That’s so fantastic. It’s happening right now. You know, I am not sitting here thinking, goodness me, after this, I have to go and evaluate five thousand interviews because Juno needs feedback to be better. Without that feedback loop, it’s just going to pause. It’s going to plateau. And if Juno’s going to always do interviewing really, really well, then we have to continue to push what well means. I love it. So how were you able to do it? How were you able to build a version of yourself, like. Yeah. So it’s, um. So what we’ve done is, uh, created a a whole library of essentially me, um, downloading how I think about this discipline. Yeah. Um, talking through examples, um, setting out guidelines, principles, core competencies, uh, explaining what those competencies are, how you do it, um, doing a lot of role play. Uh, and then we are essentially training agents based on all of that data. And I will then move to continuing to have a conversation about pushing that and, uh, new tactics and methods and activities and ways to ask questions, um, rather than And doing the manual work of evaluation. Um, so it’s so does human in the loop still play a big role? Absolutely. That part of it? Absolutely. So are you now, but does that mean you’re having a focus on training your digital twins rather than training? And is that shifting time just onto something else, or is it or is it a simpler task, do you think? Well, I think if it’s a more effective use of my time. Yeah. Um, and it’s very early. So I am very closely evaluating and watching my digital twin. Yeah, yeah. I imagine that over time, that will reduce. Yeah, I made that decision. So interesting. It’s so interesting. Uh, I think that over time, that will diminish. And what I will be able to focus on is the evolution. Yeah. So I’ll be able to look forward, and I’ll be able to think more strategically and creatively about how we really push the boundaries, like what’s next? Um, and we are moving beyond human capacity. That’s what’s exciting, right? So there are limitations to how humans have always been able to do this. Yeah, yeah. And by this I mean interviewing people, doing market research. And I believe that there are ways to do that that I haven’t even thought of yet. And now you’ve got the time to do it. And that’s that’s where I’m going to spend my time. I’m going to invent new and better ways to do this for our customers, so that when you use Juno, you are in real time accessing what I believe on that day to be the best way to do an interview. And that may be different today versus tomorrow, because I now have the time and freedom to think about that. And my digital twin can suggest to me ways to do that as well. So we are in conversation and as you continue to learn and adapt, and given that you open up the doors now to have more deeper thinking and be more innovative elsewhere, that also supports you to retrain and get that digital twin to continue to learn what you’re doing. So it’s building and learning as you’re building and learning and spending the time evaluating other things. And and I think that she will know. I know that she will see things that I can’t see. And so there’s there’s only so much data that I can consume and hold and synthesize. And by that I mean, I think I’ve probably done between five and seven thousand interviews with people all around the world. There is no way that I can think about all of those. I can lie to myself and pretend I can, but there’s no way. But she can. She can if there’s a transcript for every single one. This is. And I have no doubt that she will see things that are, uh, common. Maybe there’s tactics that I use that I didn’t know I was using. And so I also feel like there’s, it’s a, it’s a two way, uh, experience in that the system now can see my history and my experience in ways that I don’t think Josh and I can see. Yeah, and I do think there will be really interesting insights in that that will make our product better. There’s one of the things that we’re seeing more with AI as it’s coming in. There’s the big fear around job replacement, but it’s what we’re finding or what’s been the research is currently showing that is it’s taking a lot away of the that sort of book level thinking. So entry level roles, data crunching like all the things that you would, you know, people just starting on their new jobs would end up doing. Whereas what it can’t replace yet is the experience that we bring. It doesn’t have the ability to to, you know, relate or understand or piece together twenty years of research experience that you had. And now what you’re trying to do is challenge that view by going, all right, I’ve got twenty years experience. How do I set this thing up to, to to actually understand the experience and then think beyond just that book level reading that it’s currently. And what’s beyond that and what’s beyond that? What is what is I think that there is a you know, there’s a horizon line, um, as it relates to this discipline. And human capacity is sort of capped out. Yeah, right. And beyond that line is humans and technology working together to do this thing. I think that’s where the gold is. Yeah. Um, and that’s exactly what we’re enabling, uh, in a novel way. I’m not I’m not trying to, uh, control in a way that’s valid. Yeah. Of course. Um, I am opening my experience up, and I am, uh, allowing Juno to surprise us as well. Yeah. And I think that there is a trust and a, um, a surrendering to the fact that I don’t have all the answers. But I do certainly have the experience. And I think that something really beautiful can come from that. Um, and if I don’t give that willingly. If I try to protect it, I don’t know that there’s anything to gain there. Yeah, right. Like I did that job. That company was really successful. Um, I’ve done all I can do there. And now this is a great way to use that legacy. Um. And. Sure. Yeah, I have kind of put myself out of a job, but I’ve also just made a whole new future for myself. Exactly. So I just don’t I don’t I just don’t see it that way. It’s. My heart rate is very low. I’m very calm about it. Um, I I’ve very much trust my team. Um, I think they’ve got my back. I think that, um. Might things not go so well? Sure. I’m sure we’ll make mistakes along the way. We’re inventing. Of course we will. Um, but we’re going to do that responsibly. And we’re going to make sure that, you know, we honor our customers. And, um, I’m really not worried about it at all. I’m very excited. I love it. I wish I could deep dive more. I’m conscious of everyone’s time. Um, I’ve got a couple of lightning round questions for you. Um, misconceptions about AI, particularly in research that you would vanish. Um. I often hear, um, customers or new customers trying to kind of control Juno too much. And Juno works best when you give it agency. So, uh, telling it, I want to know what people think about coffee and why they drink it. Juno will just go and have those conversations, and it will adapt to different personality types, different signals. If you give it ten questions to ask in a very particular way, Juno all of a sudden becomes pretty stupid. Yeah, it’s just a conversational survey. Most of our competitors are just doing conversational surveys, um, which yields pretty thin results. And I do believe that, Um, we need to reflect on why we’re trying to control something that is better when it has agency. That is the whole point, is that you let Juno make judgments based on what you’ve told it. You want to find out. Um, and I think that people are applying that to a lot of products as well, that we don’t quite grasp yet. This idea of, um, agents having discretion and doing a thing differently to how we might do it. Awesome. Um, I touched on the whole build versus buy, but how what’s your view on build versus buy in ten words? Uh. I think that you need to stay in your lane of domain expertise. Um, and if someone is doing something better and it’s proportional to the spend that you can spend, just buy it. Yep. Um. Love that. That’s exactly I love it. Um, and one thing or two things. If you could go back to yourself on Young entrepreneur that you could give yourself as advice, going into the experience that you’ve had over the last twenty years, what do you think of those two things would be? Um, I would tell myself to listen to my gut more. Uh, to be okay. With, uh, going against the playbook. Mhm. Um, I think I spent too much time, uh, doing what was expected or trying to sort of diminish who I am. And now I’m just unapologetically me. And it’s really amazing and freeing. Um. And I wish I’d done that sooner. Yeah. Um, and I do believe that often we know the answer. It’s just that we don’t know how to get to it or we’re scared of getting to it. And often the answer is inside, not outside. Yeah. Um, I’m, you know, I’m I’m very much, uh, watching what I consume, um, and thinking about whether I want to put fast food into my system. Right. And I think a lot of what we consume is pollution. Um, again, I would do that way sooner than I did. Um, because my life is is much better for it. Um, and so I think that, uh, it’s a time for fiction. It’s a time for poetry. It’s a time for creativity. Uh, and we all need to get back to that, um, and sitting and mainlining content that doesn’t help us, that doesn’t serve us, that doesn’t light us up is just a waste of time. Amen. Fantastic. And Michelle, again, thank you so much. Sorry. Welcome. That was a fantastic conversation. Everyone give us a like and subscribe. Thank you again Michelle. Till the next episode. You’re welcome.