00:00:00 Speaker: Amazing stuff. We have been working on trying to get you on this show for a little while, but obviously, you know you’re based in San Fran, so not often in Australia and you’re down here now. There was South by Southwest, which was amazing. Um, Annie from Bill club, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. Um, I think it was just last week. Um, and the episode just came out today as as of filming, this is like, what is it like, uh, mid to late October, but we, we saw the Build club, like, hackathon stuff going on. What was that all about? Like the folks that maybe didn’t see it, like what was going on there? Yeah, yeah. The hackathon was really exciting. So, um, we worked with South by Southwest team, the National AI center, and the City of Sydney. Um, and the topic was the Future of work. Oh, essentially, we found like one hundred of some of the best AI builders engineers in Australia brought them together to hack on problem statements, which relate to how work is transforming now with AI. Yeah, I like it. Some of the stuff that we saw and we got to film, we didn’t get to talk to everyone. A lot of people were in their flow, so it wasn’t really something that we could like. We didn’t want to disturb too much, but we heard folks that were like, let’s build a better way to do vibe coding because everyone’s going to start doing vibe coding. So how can we build guardrails around it? There were people that were trying to do financial, like education type stuff. So how do we, you know, help build with that? So I think there was some really interesting stuff there. And you had your team down there. So it was great to see some of those folks, like, fly in. Um, but before we get in further to, I guess it would be good to, to get into background and stuff. Yeah. Chris, you’ve had such an incredible journey from like the youngest of age started at Westpac at like five years old. Yeah, five years old. You were you started to learn how to code yourself. Um, talk me through this journey that you went through from this early stage, you’ve been able to find yourself without having to go through the traditional ways through to like VC funds, organizations now into pretty much running your own company. Yeah, yeah, it’s been a pretty interesting career journey. I think a lot of things just led into each other. Yeah. Um, so I think growing up, like my parents, like Chinese immigrants, my brother and sister are both like doctors and dentists, so. Really? Yeah, very much like traditional, like, very academia focused upbringing. Um, but I always dabbled a lot on, like, little side projects, um, and, like, worked really hard on things. So, for example, when I was in high school, I had, like my own art gallery and like, learned to draw and like portraits of people and things like that. That’s so cool. Um, and then when the time for uni came, I didn’t really know what I wanted to do and got like a scholarship to UTS to study, um, the Bachelor of Accounting degree. And I really wanted to do it because they had like, practical hands on work experience. Uh, so started my degree in accounting. So very exciting. And then I got my first job at Westpac. Was an intern there in my first year of university. Yeah. Um, and then it was kind of for Westpac where started to, like, fall in love more with technology. Um, so in my last week of my internship, they were like, you can choose anything you want to go into. Um, and I got really lucky and picked a team where they were almost like an internal startup building, um, like a CRM tool of, like, it was like nine engineers in, like, one pm and then maybe like accounting, and then you start doing coding and developing. Yeah. That’s awesome. I think like a lot of things you can only learn on YouTube. Yeah, that obviously had like really good mentors at Westpac. Um, yeah. And then they offered me a full time role after that internship. Um, so I actually dropped out of the accounting degree and just a normal business degree and then worked full time in university. Um, yeah. And then the end of uni came up and then still didn’t really know what I wanted to do. So, um, typical uni student did, like consulting. Uh, so I worked at Boston Consulting Group, um, for just over a year. It was, really incredible experience. Learnt a lot about working hard and like strategy. What was it like working at Boston Consulting Group? Uh, I think the people you work with are some of, like, the most intelligent people you’ll ever meet and you’re exposed to, like, very like the top business problems for any company. Because when people employ, like, a VCT, they’re like paying, paying a lot for it. So expect like premium quality, I guess, like servicing and like you get trusted to solve the big problems of businesses. Yeah. Um, I was like pretty rewarding, I think as, like a young grad to like, sit in and like, contribute to the meetings, going into a young grad working at BCG. What were some of the problems that you saw that you were facing, that you were experiencing other businesses facing during that experience? Um, um, it was kind of a splatter. I was on a lot of different cases, but a lot of it is just like, how do you optimize growth or how do you cut costs? Or, um, digital transformation was a big thing picking up. Um, but this was all like pre generative AI era. So we were literally building like random forest models, like very like traditional ML. Um, but I think a lot of like the core concepts in terms of like frameworks and like business understanding is still there in terms of like levers to like, build business value and just like problem solving thinking. Yeah. And then for BCG the moving into your next another venture or adventures. How was that transition. Yes. Um, because that’s when it kind of all we say where you are now, that’s where it all started to really come to fruition of what you’re doing now. Yeah. Yeah. It was pretty lucky to get the role at aura. I think, um, so I actually got referred in by a friend. Um, I think I always knew in consulting there’s always like two pathways. You either like partner track or you use it to kind of get a job in the industry, which you’re interested in after you learn more. And then during the end of my time at BCG, I did a lot more work with the Digital Ventures arm, where they’re almost like incubating startups. got really excited about. I just vibed a lot more with the people in startups. Um, and then like, really enjoyed, like the fast pace of it. And then venture is like a relatively easy step for consulting because there’s a lot of overlap in terms of like talking to people. Um, you get to learn a lot about different industries, and it’s just like a cool space to be in, I guess. And when you were there, like, I guess, when did, uh, it kind of start to happen? Like obviously there was like all the GPT stuff that had happened before, but it was that November twenty twenty two when it really had that kind of kind of Cambrian explosion, where the simple box where you just type into and people were just getting it to describe my paper, but do it in Homer Simpson style, or do it like a pirate and just playing around with it and experimenting. But then it turned into like a really useful like for those who knew how to use it like a business tool. But when did it start happening that from, you know, the work you were doing at or adventures. This idea to stop bringing people together come to life. Yeah. Um, there’s kind of two, two angles with it. Um, so our adventures, they’re like a very high conviction, like, thesis driven VC firm. Um, so one of my first tasks was. So explain what that means. Um, so you, like, look at different industries, and then you make predictions about where you think it’s going. Um, so, like, probably thirty percent of the work we did was just like researching industry trends. Um, so for example, like in, like insurance industry where, like the pockets for innovation. Um, and then I chose AI, so like the one for me to focus on, um, and spend a lot of time researching just like the market landscape for it. Um, but I think I’ve kind of evolved separately to that. Um, I think being in VC, um, like a lot of my friends were founders, um, and we were all just like, nerd out about AI. A lot of the time. And Bill literally started like on the weekends, we would all go to a Starbucks with our laptops and just like code or like build side projects together. Mhm. Um, and because the field of AI was moving so quickly, like every week there’ll be like something new to talk about. Um, and it’s obviously like extremely exciting. And you hear like all these news articles which like popping up and it’s just like nice to have someone to talk to about it. Yeah. Um, otherwise it does get like kind of like scary because you’re like, okay, what does this mean for my work? Um, and like, even like, also as, like a VC investor, does this mean for, like, the type of startups who will, like, grow quicker than others and things like that? Um, yeah. So it kind of just like started it, like with friends. Oh, that’s really good. Um, and with with all of that, did, uh, when did it start? Like going from, like, say, being at the Starbucks to then running it on, because one of the first ones I got to go to was actually, you know, a weekender at an office. So when, when did it start? Like, uh, kind of going over to, to that kind of growth. Um, um, we actually stayed like, kept it as a very small friendship group thing for quite, quite a long time. Um, but eventually, like other, like more people wanted to join and then we’re like, okay, there has to be, like, a decision made here. Um, I think it’s when we really, like, thought more deeply about, like, the bigger impact we could have in terms of like, um, what we were really excited about in the beginning is like the whole trend around like a one person, like unicorn company in terms of like technical, you could probably build like a massive company now and, and like scale for like agents and just like build essentially. Um, yeah. So we like we’re getting like more and more excited about it, and there was obviously traction for it. Um, and then back to my boss at the time, Eric Chan. Um, because he was like, he’s the founder of our ventures. Um, for, like, the office keys to use it on the weekends. Um, so we actually started out at Aura Ventures offices. Um, and at that point in time, it was actually called auras Bill club. Um, because I used a bit of company time or like, would always work overtime on it. So it was like easier for me to like slide that angle. Where’s the line drawn? I guess because it’s like it’s a lot of your own time and stuff into this. But anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah definitely. And then yeah, I just like started working more and more of my weekends on it basically. Um, and then I think at that point it was clear that this is like more bigger than just like Aura Ventures, like Little Club. So what were you doing at the time when you were in Starbucks? What was the what was the I guess, what occurred during that transition from Starbucks with a close group of people, as you were saying, moving into or venture offices and utilizing that space with more people outside of that closed group. Like what was the what was the shift that created that? Um, I think like one of the good things about community with like bringing in different perspectives and things like that, um, and like our thinking definitely changed over time because like, in the beginning, we were only like people who were very, very technical, very good, like cracked AI engineers or like software engineers into the community, because we thought that only if you’re deeply technical, you can understand the different AI concepts and build like a big company. Um, and then I think like a big part which has enabled us to scale, is realizing that people who are like semi-technical or just like, willing to learn, are equally as equipped to build incredible things with AI. Um, and that shift to like scaling, almost like mimics, like our changing mission. Yeah, yeah. Awesome. That was like. And at that particular time, you’re still working, and you suddenly had to make a decision Around what you were doing? Yeah, yeah. Talk to me about that decision you had to make. Yeah, it was a hard one. So I think one year into my time at Aura Beard Club was in maybe like a few different cities in Australia. Wow. Where people, like, volunteered to run coworking, where they were. And then we actually got offered like angel funding, I think in, in December that year, um, actually turned it down because we weren’t sure. I think there’s like community is very, very hard to monetize. And like our mission is to democratize access to AI education. So it would go directly against that by stage gating the accessibility of it. Um, and then we weren’t too sure how to scale it either. We had like a slack channel, which was like pretty active at that time, um, and ran like dabbled in education workshops, but it wasn’t scalable at all. Um, and we didn’t have, like, high conviction in what, like the monetization model would be, which wouldn’t kill the community. Um, so we, like, were actually really close to taking angel funding at that point in time. But then I also had the role, um, at relevance, I pop up to relevance AI um, their Sydney and San Francisco based series B startup. Um, and they were anyone heard of it? Relevance AI yeah, not that big. They’re just pretty big. Yeah. Um, yeah. But they were obviously like one of the hottest AI startups in Australia. Yeah. Uh, and I really got along with the founders, Jackie and Daniel. Um, so it will be a really good chance just to, like, learn from them and obviously, like, create impact at a company where they are building something very cool. In Australia, you don’t get many like AI agent workforce startups. I love the idea that you’ve gone in there going, oh, there’s so much I could learn from them, and I know that I’ve spoken to them previously and off off like in candid moments, and they’re just like, we had no idea what we were doing. It’s like, so you see these people who are these brilliant entrepreneur minds who are just so unsure of themselves, but it’s just that that eagerness and that ego that just lets them, some. I feel confident I’m going to go for this and it just brings people around them, right? There’s definitely an ego. Um, you have to have a good bit of ego there. Like there’s bad ego and there’s good ego. You believe in yourself. But like, remember when you were having those conversations? Like, because it was like, do I go all in on Bill club? And we had these discussions and you spoke to many people I know, but like, I was privileged enough to be one of those that you asked about. And so I know a bit about your journey, but you you looked at relevance and you’re looking at Bill club and then you went with relevance and and obviously now all in and we’re all still very connected and we love what they’re doing. And you guys just did stuff together, as you mentioned at the start. But it’s interesting because for the founders out there, what was that like? What was the kind of emotions, the the thinking that you were having? Okay, I’m going to try it out. Things happen and change and you pivot like, what was that all like, um, yeah, I think like it was kind of just the kind of framework it down to, like making a good decision. Um, I think like everything happens for a reason in life. It’s like a um, such a good. Yeah, definitely. Like, at this, like, point of time. I just wanted to optimize for, like, learning, um, as fast as I could, working with people who I like, really respected and, like, wanted to be around. Um, and on an interesting topic, um, and I thought relevance, like, ticked off all those boxes, um, but was like there like when I talked to the founders about moving to relevance, um, I like, communicated that I’d still like, work on build club on the side. Um, so I could still, like, keep my baby at that time, I guess. Um, and then I think, like. Yeah, like, relevance was really good opportunity. Um, I think if I went back, I wouldn’t have, like, made a different decision. Yeah. Um, I think getting to work directly with the founders, um, and like, seeing something like scale from, like, maybe like one enterprise, big enterprise customer to like many and then like the team, like, double in size. Um, I think it was a pretty unique opportunity. Yeah. Awesome. So you were there for almost nine months while you were building Build Club still on the side or with your other co-founders. It’s like a kind of a story that you hear from a lot of founders in that early stage of having to still work somewhere to bring income while trying to build something that is their passion. How did you find that balance jumping between, because you’ve now sort of lost that freedom that you had a little bit at aura in the space, and now you’re moving into something where it’s dragging you in full time and still trying to balance build club. Yeah. How did you find that that pivot? Yeah, it was definitely tricky to navigate. I think both of them were really fun. So it was like like for me, I really didn’t get burnt out because it felt like both of them were like progressing. Yeah. But yeah, usually it was just like seven, seven day weeks where you just, like, working. Wow. Yes. That’s the founder life there is out there. Like, did you find times to rest and like, how do you recharge during that kind of period? How did you keep your energy? Yeah I like took like some time off on the weekends. Um, yeah, I think, like, it’s like opt in, like, you wouldn’t do it if you wouldn’t want to do it. Yes. Um, and it’s just like understanding that, like, at this point in my time in my life, I just want to focus on this. Did you get energy? Well, did you get energy from it? Because for other people, like, doing this kind of stuff might be draining. And it’s like, okay, that’s going to be hard. But do you find that you you find. Yeah. Do you find that you got energy from doing all these things? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think it was just like fun to work with, like people on both teams, I guess. And then, um, I think the good thing about both was like, there was, like, momentum and, like, clear, like next steps to execute, because I think one thing like I really like doing is just like getting things done and then like seeing like the feedback loop and it’s almost like, yeah, it’s very addicting to just like keep building. Yeah. When you look back, you’re like, you’ve taken a hundred steps, you’re on top of a pyramid, you know, now, like you just built all these little building blocks where it’s like harder. And the journey I think a lot of people forget that, You know that. That’s that’s a good way to look at it. But it is that kind of feedback loop. And I guess it’s led to what you guys have got now with with Bill club. And like, you just come back from San Fran, I wanted to kind of dive into that next topic, but what was that? What is it like over there versus here? Because a lot of people, like you said, um, you know, relevance, great Aussie kind of business and stuff that, you know, uh, potential unicorn, uh, out there. But what are you seeing on the ground? Because how long have you been in San Fran based now? Uh, around eight months now. Yeah, but I’ve been back and forward. Um, wow. With, like, Sydney and San Francisco. How are you finding that? Uh, kind of like the the building over there versus, like, what it was that you were, you know, starting off over here, like, is there a massive difference? Is Australia super far behind? Like, what are your thoughts on kind of like the because people are invariably going to ask that question, what’s the Australia versus San Fran? Obviously we know it’s going to be really cool over there. But like just how big of a difference is it that you’re finding? Yeah, I think on the macro level first. Um, SF is definitely like a more developed, like tech ecosystem because it’s just been around for longer. Um, whereas in Australia we’re definitely more nascent, like maturing. So we have like Atlassian relevance, like a lot of really good startups popping up. But SF has had like that full like cycle of like capital growth where there’s like two times X to the founders, like restarting businesses, um, and VC firms who have been around like for longer essentially. Um, and basically like built VC like as a business. Um, so the ecosystem is a lot more mature. And with that they just have like more like programs or pillars and things like that to support, um, like early stage founders. Um, and like probably like the culture is another thing to talk about. Um, I think one of the things which really drove me to San Francisco is, I think, like the first time I went there, um, I was like, went to like a co-working space and like, everyone there was so willing to help. Everyone was working like seven day weekends. So they week sorry. And it was like totally normal. Um, but everyone was also just like a very, like genuine, like intelligent, grounded, like person who just, like, loves to build. Um, so that’s what I really like about SF is like the density of people like that is like a lot higher compared to Australia. Um, but I definitely think in Australia the tech talent is like equal in terms of like intelligence. It’s just like not as concentrated. Yeah. It’s funny you brought up the seven day thing a couple times. Now it’s the we’re speaking with Nicole Gibson um, a few weeks ago. And one of the questions we asked was around work life balance. She’s all about wellness and mental health. And she’s like, if you love what you’re doing, there’s no such thing as as work life balance. And I’m hearing that more and more from founders as like there’s no work life balance. Your passion is your work life balance. It’s you’re throwing yourself into these seven day weeks, trying to punch out as much as you can to get your business off the ground. Yeah. How did you find that? I mean, you mentioned that there are a lot of people doing the same thing. How did you find that from an energy level, as you’re going through this in a new place, in a new area? And how did the everyone around you support you through that, that experience? There was definitely teething issues. Yeah. Yeah. I think Steph is a very different place to live compared to Sydney. Um, there’s like drug and like homeless problems and things like that. And then just like navigating a new country. So like when I moved over, it was like, just me. Yeah. Um, so I had to, like, find, like, friends, and, like, that must have been a bit. It was scary. Um, it was, like, scary, but also, like, exciting at the same time. It’s like a challenge, almost like an underdog. You know, you can’t really, like, sink much deeper up. Like you can’t get anywhere. It’s only halfway up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but, yeah, I got really lucky when I first moved over, um, during, like, a hacker house, which is actually one of the oldest houses in SF called Mission Control. So like the scale I found, this came out of it. Um, McDavid also lived there for a period. Um, and like Sarah from the conviction fund, um, so house with like a lot of legacy. So everyone living there was, like, pretty well connected and like, very like sociable and like, nice people and insanely smart. My, my knowledge of hacker houses is. Have you ever seen Silicon Valley, the show? Yeah, that’s that’s my only understanding of a hacker house documentary. Right? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. It was all about a little about real founder life. Um, yeah. Uh, is that the kind of experience it is? I mean, obviously not with a minus the sarcasm and the idiocy, but it is just like a group of people trying to build stuff all together and, yeah, pretty much a house, I guess you could call it. Yeah. Yeah, basically, actually there’s like I think the fun thing is everyone I think in Silicon Valley, everyone was like in the same startup. Um, I think in the hacker houses I lived at, we’re all working on our own startup. Yeah, but, like, the fun thing is, like, literally, we’ll all get home maybe at like eight, nine, seven ish. Um, and then we’re just like, sit there, like, working. But then we all have, like, very different, like funny stories which happen during the day or like things like traumatized by trade, just like bond over trauma, bonding. That’s what’s needed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that’s like pretty cool. So. And like, all my flatmates like raised like their like seed rounds and like. But when we first met we were all like pretty new to the area. So I think just like, wow, that journey is like incredibly exciting. Even if you’re just like we’re sharing with them. Like, do we do we have anything similar here? Houses? Do we have that here? Do you guys do one? There’s a really there’s a new one called Ariya. Ariya. Like started. Um, so like Jack, Maddy, um, and like a little some, like, the original book club members went there. Um, and it’s like an incredible, like, half house in Sydney. Awesome. You know, it’s like that philosophy, like build club. you were bringing people together on the weekends, whether it’s Starbucks or at aura or wherever they were. And in other cities, and you were living that ethos as well in terms of like going into like these places. So it’s like a guild club section. Yeah, yeah. You know, so I just find it interesting and stuff the comparisons there. Like, we know that, um, there is a lot of catching up that Australia needs to do, but do you have any advice for and I don’t know who’s going to solve this in Australia. Whether it’s government it’s startup communities like Stone and chalk that, you know, we’re both part of or it’s a startup themselves coming together. But what kind of things do you think that we could do here in Australia to help catch up, whether it’s a cultural thing or it’s like there’s an infrastructure thing that we need more of that you’ve been seeing over there. Yeah. Um, I’d say it’s like, no, like one shot or type type solution. Um, I think maybe as, like a startup founder, what I’ve found, like the most helpful. Um, it’s probably more like culturally in terms of like NSF. What I really like is taking a risk is like cool, like it’s like positive aura points. Like if you are like, taking your risk, dropping out of university, um, to like, go to your own thing. And even if you fail, it’s still viewed as like that person, like took a bet on themself and it’s like trying something different. Um, whereas I think in Australia, just from like my experiences, it’s like not as common or like encouraged. Um, and I think to encourage that. It’s also like helping helping the startup. So even just making like customer introductions and, um, like connecting them to like one person who might be able to help actually goes a lot further for like a young or like anyone trying to build anything. Yeah. Why do we think that doesn’t exist here? What, like we are as a familiar thing I keep hearing is that we are a very risk averse culture. Like, I wonder why that is. Um, I don’t know. Don’t know. Um, there’s a lot of, like, toilet puffy syndrome, I think. Yeah, in Australia. But I got, like, pretty positive experiences, um, overall. So it’s like. Yeah, I think we’re all good people. Oh, yeah. For sure. There’s probably pockets of it. It’s just it’s not enough. And I think, um, from my own experience, they’re not connected enough. You know, they’re over there. A lot of like what you’ve described is, is experiences are shared. But over here, there’s not enough of that connectivity across the ecosystem because there are pockets of it. Like clearly with the companies that are there, what you guys are doing. Um, but it just needs to be more connected. Like, funnily enough, there’s probably still people that haven’t heard about Bill club here in Australia, even though it’s home grown out of here. So I think it’s just more about the people, whether it’s schools, universities or in work, that they know that there are places like this out there to support them and that these big dreams that they have don’t just have to stay there. They could actually bring it to life. So, you know, that’s what the mission that you guys are on. And, you know, we’re keen to get that message out, that obviously, um, then you obviously going through your journey to break things and, and understand how you guys are going to scale. You eventually did race. Yes. Talk about that. That’s that’s like amazing. Huge. Congratulations. I think it was a year, a year ago now. Yeah. Um, yeah. So I was like at relevance AI um, and the relevance was a super interesting company because, um, still are a super interesting company. Yeah. Um, don’t worry, we’re not planning to. Yeah. Present tense. Um, with many more things to come. Um, but, like, one of the biggest insights from working there was, um, in terms of enterprise AI adoption, um, and relevance was one of the first companies to do a really cool thing, which was to build like what they called like an agent builder team internally, where they realized for enterprises to get like really good ROI from like AI workflows and AI agents, there’s almost like an element of like servicing, which has to occur where, um, a lot of companies just want like a quick win of, like, here’s like an agent, which will work for you. Yeah. So what we did at relevance was we built a team of, like, internal forward deployed engineers. Um, we almost like, work directly with, like, the bigger customer accounts. Um, almost like an internal, like BCG consultant, BCG like data scientist. Um, and then what would happen is we’d try handover the agents. Um, but a lot of the time in enterprises because relevance AI, they’re like a tool platform. So people that can’t code are like the ideal users of it. There’s an element of like education there where handing it over. But then maybe that person doesn’t even know, like what prompting is. Or like, what is AI? Um, so it’s like a big education gap. And companies like relevance, um, aren’t like traditionally like boot camp companies. So venture about to sail quickly. Um, so it’s like a gap in the market there organically for AI adoption? Um, yeah. And then, yeah. So I started thinking more about like, okay, could this be like, something commercially viable? Um, and then at the same time also started having, like, more angel like discussions with people who are, like, wanting to come in earlier in the year in book club. Um, so like Maxine and then also with um, Archer, who was actually one of like the really early discussions we had where Alicia was actually like, so I hadn’t decided to turn it into a business at that point. But she was like, this could be a business. And like, planted that seed in my mind. Um, and I think I, like, went away for one week, like, thought really deeply and came back with like a memo and was like, we’re going to do it all and raise, um, yeah. So it kind of like happened serendipitously. And then at the same time, our community was growing really quickly. Um, and we were able to, like, think really deeply about where we thought, like, the future of work is going and where the gaps in the market were. So like kind of racing off like our community growth and then also like thinking in that area. So you had like this reinforcement of it because it could have just been we’ve got a thesis but there’s no signals there that are reinforcing it. But you had the reinforcement from the community and you actually saw evidence of this being a real problem from the work you were doing at relevance. So it seems like it all came together quite nicely in terms of timing. Yeah. I do think we yeah, there’s always an element of luck involved. Um, but yeah, we were excited to see, like what we could build it into. I think it was like a regret minimization decision. Um, and someone in the world has to build this, like, thing for enterprises where it will teach employees or, like, help upskill them with, like, the AI tools, which they need. Um, I think there’s like a graph out there where it has like the pace at which the like frontier AI companies are moving in terms of like technical advancement. So for example, like Gemini, um, like anthropic and everyone like how quickly are they like, um, increasing output, um, and like advancing. And then there’s like, I think it’s tc3 is like the measure. And then there’s also like human adoption and like what humans are able to get out of the tool. And then because with AI now, like, technological advancements are just like compounding. And then for humans, it’s kind of like like linear, I think. Um, so it’s like a gap there in terms of like closing, like the outcome gap for AI. Um, and that’s what we’re really excited about building now. I think it’s really interesting because like the type of work that we will do in future, just from knowing in this room what it is that AI can do and humans becoming more orchestrators, the type of work certainly changes. It’s like when you look back when not all farmers, whereas we used to be much more agricultural as a society before, but then new innovations come in and we change the way of working, we move to offices, etc. so given that thesis, I think it’s really interesting with what you guys are doing because you get to be part of that transition, that transformation and revolution, so to speak. So it feels like pretty important work, I’d say. Yeah. It’s exciting. What advice would you have for someone going through it? Because, I mean, I spoke to someone even this morning, a friend of mine who was like, I’ve got this idea. I want to try and build it out. Like, how do I go about it? And it will all lead. Yeah, there’s the whole where does it start? But always leading to that point of I need to at some point raise money to try and get to that next step. What advice do you have around how to position yourself, whether it’s, you know, the validation piece all the way up into writing that deck and then getting it in front of people? You wrote an interesting article at one point around, you know, your confidence when you’re standing in front of those people. What advice do you have for someone going through that, that journey to get there? Yeah. Um, I’d say just think back yourself, because if you can’t back yourself in obesity or back here. Yeah. Um, and there’s also a lot of different ways to build businesses nowadays. Um, so, for example, one of my roommates in San Francisco, he owns, like, a consulting business, like, ah. Um, so it’s like now with AI, I think, like, even how we do businesses changes. Like, maybe if you’re a startup, you can raise less capital now because you don’t need to employ as many software engineers to, like, scale. Um, yeah. So I feel like I’m, like, doing my best position to give advice just because everything’s, like, changed so much even from when we raised. Yeah. Um, but I think having, like, strong thinking in that area goes a long way. And just like, so much that you’re almost, like, delusional that you think like, this has to be true, and that’s why you’re chasing it. Because if you’re if you want to build like the venture capital business, venture capital business, um, funded startup, then it backs like people who are different and like the anomalies because like with VC, it’s like the parallel, um, and there’s only so many unicorns in the world. And if you want to like a really different result to everyone else, you have to think differently I believe oral VCs after the unicorns though. Or there’s some because not all. Obviously, like you said, not all businesses are going to be unicorns. Is there opportunity for businesses who know they’re going to be growth, but not going to be a unicorn to raise capital, or is that going to make things harder? It’s a good question. I’d say. I mean, like we chose the VC path because we wanted to scale quickly and like we wanted to build. We want to build a really good business. Yeah, like big business. Um, but there’s also other forms of funding like debt capital and things like that too, I think. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. I think the VC’s probably want more. They want the unicorns. That was the. Yes, that was the. They’re not all gonna work. But you want to have folks that have they want that conviction. You know in this belief especially around the the AI skills gap that is abundantly clear. And whether you just think about it, from what you’ve seen, what people have experienced, like you said, like it’s clear to see that AI every day, every week there’s there’s something new, but we’re not learning at that pace. So I think you’re on to a very good thesis right there. Um, bounty market club that you guys. Bounty marketplace. Bounty marketplace. Ah, yeah. Market club. I got Bill club in my head. The bounty marketplace that you guys are pushing forward. What’s the thesis around that? Yes. Um, yeah. So bounty marketplace, there’s like a few things which kind of come together. Um, so I think with any like good marketplace, it’s when supply and demand are very fragmented and then you’re bringing them together. Um, and for us, what we realized through Bill club is that there was all these really amazing, like, AI engineering consultants, builders, um, in our community, um, and more and more people also want to do AI consulting just because there’s so much demand for it right now. Um, and then our community also grew a lot to other parts of the world, like Jakarta, um, Bali and like India. And this like a lot of like gig economy work there. Um, and then at the same time, like with Bill club, um, because our like branding on like LinkedIn is like very like small business like enterprise more so um, and we’re also like tapped into the Australian market. That was just like an organic gap there where people would like, email me on LinkedIn and be like, I have this little AI project I want built. Mhm. Um, so what we actually started to do even before we raised like the capital was just using like an Airtable form, um, getting people to populate it and then it would just like go into a slack and then people would like apply for the bounty. Um, and that was like really good to prove that thesis in terms of those like evident gap, gap in the market. Um, and the problem which we’re now like leaning into solving a bit more is like also vetting AI talent. Um, because I think there’s a lot of freelancer platforms out there, like Fiverr at work, where people literally just have like banners of like random AI companies on their profiles. But as a small business owner who knows nothing about AI, like how do I choose the best builder for what I want to do? Uh, so it’s a big opportunity there to, like, help bridge that labor. And we’ve heard arbitrage. We’ve heard some pretty crazy stories of, like, people even starting businesses and like, working as contractors in organizations. But half of their persona is just AI because the business hasn’t vetted them properly. So it’s very interesting that that is something that you’re trying to push towards. Um, given some of the stuff that’s happened in the market recently. Um, how have you, uh, is that how is sorry? How does a platform current accessible in terms of being able to do your bounties and for people to be able to apply for them? Is it still managed through slack or is there. Yeah, that’s a good, good question. Um, I’m not sure when this will be released, but in a few weeks it’ll be in a few weeks. Yeah. Like one week away from, like finishing, like the payments build for the a bouncing off place. Yeah, because I think a big value add we can do is just like make the experience of the transaction this like frictionless as possible. So offer it for things like, um, like escrow and then like the communication flow for the bounties. Um, yeah. So that will be live soon. Yeah. That’s exciting. So a person can go on, create a profile, submit a bounty for their product, um, or their build. It goes into a separate platform for your build club members or all part of. Yeah. They will uh, pretty much they bid on it. Or do they apply for it? How does it work? Yeah, that’s a good question. Yeah. So they I guess like fitting and applying kind of similar. Yeah. They just submit a bit about like what they would use to build it. Um, and any past project work which is relevant. I think the other thing we have is if they’ve been on build up for a while, they build up their skill profile so we can automatically see, like if they know how to do rag properly or if they know how to use Nam in a built similar projects in the past. It’s almost like a LinkedIn, but specifically for like very detailed AI skill sets. Yeah, I was gonna say it’s like LinkedIn, but with proof. Sorry, LinkedIn, but with proof so that, uh, right now, like anyone can make up a LinkedIn profile, connect to others and stuff. And I think that’s where a lot of the the issues have kind of stem from. Whereas with this, like there is actual proof that you get to showcase like whether it’s badges and people showing like past work, it’s easier for folks that are wanting to businesses like I know that will probably want to use the bounty platform to be able to verify, um, and see all of that. So I think it’s interesting to to bridge the gap again. And there’s a whole lot of bridges and I guess in the theme, uh, over here. But, um, do you see it, uh, what’s the kind of evolution you want to see from from having this? Do you want to just have initial kind of testing and, you know, seeing how people are using it and growth that way? Or do you have some, you know, features that you want to be adding in in phases as you, you know, as this thing grows. Yeah, I think we’re just, like, trying to iterate as fast as possible. Um, yeah. So I think there are definitely features we want to build in. For example, like automatic AI, like matching with time. Um, and I think that’s a really powerful like data piece there to where we can help people like price projects based on benchmarks. Um, and really just streamline the process as much as possible. Like even for example, for the builder, we could recommend like open source templates for them to start with and then like jumpstart their journey to build that bounty. Um, so there’s a lot of things we could build. I think for us, we’re just like iterating and like trying to work as quickly as possible. It’s a good place to be. Yeah. So, um, I think it’s really interesting what you guys have been able to create in terms of the movement of people that want to, you know, uh, learn how to do this or like, work with others that have been there before. And it’s like mixing these like, skills and experiences That really is like kind of core there. But, um, you know, I guess more news on the bounty marketplace as, uh, as of today, the launch is tomorrow. So I think it’s going to be really interesting to see that we’ll probably have to get some some good B-roll. Yeah, we’ll get some footage and share that out. Yeah. So so we’ll make sure to share all of that. Um, you mentioned before like jumping into the cultural movement side of things you mentioned, like the all of these things that drove you to what you’re creating. Now, do you see, I guess AI adoption is more of a technical or like a cultural kind of challenge that needs to be faced, that you kind of thoughts on that, having lived here and also in San Fran? Yeah, that’s a really good question. Um, so it’s like if it’s. I probably say it has to be both. Um, so like the companies we work with at Build Club where we’re seeing them being able to like, transform, for example, their workforce to be AI native faster is there’s like a really strong like top down push from management in terms of, um, so when the group is an example of a company which does this really well, like the CEO has publicly stated, by July twenty twenty six, our whole workforce will be AI native, either on board or you’re not going to be part of the company anywhere. Um, and I think that’s a very strong message to send. And then, yeah, so it’s like the top down bit, which is like definitely like a culture change management piece. But then on the other side, you have to like, equip the people with the right tools and like a platform for them to actually be AI native. So it’s probably like a more two sided question looking at scaling as the next part, because it’s great to get all these things started, get all these people in, get them educated and whatnot. But it’s not just to do things as we’re doing it right now. It’s to to grow and, you know, get into something further. But you’ve got this ambitious goal of like one million AI builders by twenty twenty six. What are your thoughts around that? Like, um, is it, you know, something that, uh, you see as very achievable? Is it something that’s going to be this big, hairy, lofty kind of goal and it’s going to take a few a bit of luck, but also things that you create to get there. What are your thoughts on like getting to to a big number like that. Um, I’d say we in our minds it’s definitely achievable, which is going to set achievable Smart goals as they teach you in university. Smart. Yes. Yeah. Um, and I think a lot of like why we think it’s achievable is for just like all our learnings through working with the community, like the network effects which community itself has. And then also, um, as we build out like the product for Build Cloud, um, just like we can scale like our Out, in fact, to more people quite quickly. Yeah. I think, um, you know, the community part is really interesting in that too, because like, and we’ve alluded to it before, but like, just how how powerful is it that you’ve got a community like this? Because there’s a lot of others that have some great ideas, but they just don’t. They haven’t done the hard work to or yet to to build up and have a community like this. Like, what do you get from having, you know, these people around the world in nearly fifty countries, um, all doing stuff with Build Club. What does that kind of mean for you? Like for us, it’s just like heartwarming. I don’t know how else to describe it. Yeah. Um, like, every time we see, like, a picture of, like, a community event, for example, in Nepal, we’re like, wow, that was like, pretty cool. Um, and I think, like, the best part is now we actually give like, our platform for free to our community. So we actually provide provide value I guess, um, because we don’t pay like any of our city leads to run like code workings where they are. We just try support as best as we can. And I think our platform has been a good way where we can support without going broke, essentially. Yeah, I think that’s really cool. Like giving them the tools to be able to, you know, scale this. And these are people that believe in it and they get, I guess, a lot of energy and, um, power from having the connections to, you know, what you guys have created. I think, you know, that there’s going to be much more in the community side of things. And obviously with the events that you guys are doing, what’s it like running events like, say, in San Fran versus like, uh, here in Australia? Is there a big difference? It’s very similar. Yeah. Always the clean up afterwards. The pizzas are still pizzas. Not not Domino’s. Maybe something else. So yeah. Yeah. Similar. Similar. Um, yeah. I think in San Francisco we’re also more, more lucky because I think a lot of like the bigger companies are there. Um, so getting really cool speakers in is like a bit easier in Australia. We’d have to be like, oh, we have to like, fly someone in. Yeah. Um, and things like that. Get them. If they’re away, get them in the perfect time to. Yeah. While you’re transitioning just off South by Southwest. Um, I think it’s going to be really cool there, I guess. So, yeah. Do you want to add is there because are you touching on the AI thing that you mentioned before? Um, and the fact that you have community all over the world, is there a lot of fear for them around what AI is doing to their jobs and their roles? And is there worry about that from a community aspect as well, of AI taking over these people that the community might? Yeah. Um, I’d say outside of our community, it definitely is. But in our community are people who are like, okay, this is inevitably gonna impact my role in some way. How do I stay on top of it and actually feel empowered instead of, like, fearful of, like, falling behind, like all the AI wave movement? Mhm. Um, yeah. How are you personally addressing it personally if we’re, if we’re working on VR club seven days a week. Yeah, yeah. That’s, that’s your um but our team also dog foods. A lot of what we do. Yeah. Um, so I don’t know if you’ve heard of, like, a tool called AI. It was like working with them very much to. And like, visually, we just use them religiously now internally for like, all our operations. Um, okay. And then, like grilling, like our CPO, like, every single day, he, like, comes back with, like, oh my God, we should try this new tool. Um, so we yeah, we probably like one of the power users of a lot of, like, the AI apps. How are you using? Talk to me about what’s the some of the cool things that you’re doing with it. Ah, yesterday we built a web page using llamas. So they release minus one point five recently where it can now do like user authentication and also have like a super base database. Um, and you can actually build like chatbots inside of it now. Um, so very similar functionality to like the lovable or like bolts of the world. Um, so we use that actually to build a landing page for the Academy, which we’re releasing with them. Um, on top of that, probably I think Manus is really good at is like the agent side. Um, I think they’ve managed to really nail, like, agent architecture, and then they spent a lot of time researching that to build the foundations correctly. And then, um, the UX is also really good. So one of the features I really like doing is like you can like interrupt Manus while it’s like running. Whereas I think in a lot of other apps you can’t do that. Definitely not. Um, and has a lot of other features like connectors now where you can like connect directly to notion. So one workflow like we recently did is we actually stopped using like audio, which was like the CRM we were using. And like now every morning I just be like, can you like read my emails and then update our notion database and it will like literally run that workflow and you can schedule it to. Yeah. That’s so good. That’s the future of work right there. You just wake up. It feels like I’m people that watch Star Trek. You just talk into a device and just all these things just happen in the background, like magic. That’s pretty cool. Yeah, yeah. How does man is different for for the general user in business. Like how would you compare it to like a ChatGPT or. Um, I know it can do a lot more comparable things like bold and lovable, but how from a general gist of things, given that it sounds like you’re using more than these other tools. Yeah, there’s definitely similarities. Um, but I think, yeah, like for me, like like the UX, I just like, preferred more. Um, and then with mantis, I think their positioning in the market is, is pretty different. Um, so they are more of an action engine. Um, so I think we’ve like perplexities in the ChatGPT and clothes of the world, like thinking. And then they give you an answer. Yeah. Um, but madness angle is we are gonna like, help you action that answer. And that’s because they focus so much on like building out like the authentic functionality where you can literally type something and it will like they have like a feature called mail, for example, where you can like send an email to like the, like for the email to the mailbox and it will just like action the action items. I was like kind of crazy and scary at the same time. Yeah. So I think like the actionable angle is like really good. And then they have a lot of use cases which are tailored to white collar workers. Um, so we’re actually going to be showcasing them in the academy we have launching. Um, but there’s like really good like power use cases of like finance teams, business analysts and product managers in particular, who completely transformed, like their workflows using manners. Now, I’m looking forward to all of that, because I think, you know, in stuff that we’ll be doing, we’ll probably want to use things like that as well. I remember using it when it first came in the market. It was like I was very in love with it, but I wasn’t in love with the cost. That was that’s what drove ended up driving me away from it a little bit. But I think I’m gonna sway back very quickly. I think it’s interesting on the cost because like, whereas other things like I don’t want to pay more than, like a Netflix subscription and stuff, but just given the value that I get out of, like whether it’s that I use a lot of I’m very happy to pay hundreds of dollars Two dollars a month given all the benefits that I get from it. So I think if people see the benefit, that’s going to be the key. Very much so. Um, should we do some rapid fire questions? Sure. Are we to to close things out? So we do like a little bit where it’s like some short, quick fire questions and answers. Um, I mean, I kind of the first one, I kind of feel like the choice, but obviously AI is a big part of the discussions and the integrations and workflows that you’ve said. Manus is a tool that is currently integrated with you quite heavily. What other tools are like changing the way that you work and think? Yeah, I mean, yeah, we use like most of the tools out there. Um, so I also still use a lot of I think it’s better for like, just like talking and like copywriting. Yeah. Um, granola is one of our big fans of, um. And then I also use, like, lovable and, like, Zapier and Nam, so. Yeah, basically like a splatter. Yeah. That’s good. That’s a true AI founder right there. their, um, uh, advice for business people in Australia in particular who are trying to get out, reach out more, move to places like San Fran, raise capital. Yeah, um, just like do it. Yeah, like like go over there. Um, like just to, like, see you if you like. Like the landscape of the land. And I think you’ll find, like. Like no one I’ve talked to has ever regretted. Like, going over there. Yeah. Find a way to get there. Yeah. Find a way to get there. Yeah. Love it. Um, and last question. Favorite drink of choice? Oh, I think this is the only one right answer. Coke zero. And you heard it here first. Is there? And is there anything you want to plug? Um, while we’re here, as a final point around what you guys are doing at Build Club, things that are coming out. Yeah. So I think by the time this episode is released, we would have launched our enterprise product, which is Slirci. And essentially, it’s taking all the learnings we’ve had from seeing like our community upskill in AI And then we’ve applied that to the enterprise. So we do everything from an AI like diagnostics surfacing like impact areas. And then we actually go in there and upskill your employees for our learning platform. Um, I think the waitlist for that will be opening. Very exciting. We’ll make sure to put the links in the show. Thank you very much for joining us, Annie. It’s really, really nice to have you here back in Australia finally. And I’m sure your journey will take you back to San Fran and yeah, that’s it. Thanks for your time. Thank you so much for having me. Awesome. Cool. Yeah. That’s it. Thank you.